1 they tentatively accepted that. That was my first concern. But

2 based on what Bill told them, I felt a little better about the

3 situation. And I don't know what happened at the grand jury,

4 when they said they didn't feel like they were asked the

5 questions that they had been led to believe were the pertinent

6 ones for their testimony.

7Shortly after that -- I believe that's the last session I

8 can remember that Asa Hutchinson held with the grand jury

9 concerning this investigation. Shortly after that, I learned

10 that he was quitting his position and was going to run for some

11 political office, and that Mike Fitzhugh would be taking over

12 United States Attorney. My contact with the United States

13 Attorney's Office for the most part ended at that time.

14 There were a lot of frustration in that -- in the lack of

15 communication. We were so busy, it wasn't really noticeable at

16 first. By "we," I mean myself and Bill Duncan, and myself and

17 the people in my department going -- traveling to New Orleans,

18 or to Baton Rouge, to Texas, gathering information. We were

19 busy trying to find out what had happened and gather a case file

20 and see if there was something to investigate. And as the more

21 we went, the more we found out, just a little here and a little

22 there, and we slowly started building a case and saw at some

23 point that, yes, there is something here that needs to be

24 investigated. We have got cocaine smuggling that is not a

25 covert operation by somebody who feels that we don't need to

1 know. Which we wouldn't have trouble with that, with somebody

2 who carried on a covert operation and not telling us, because

3 you just can't be too safe.

4 By the time we decided that we did have an investigation,

5 that we did have a case, that we could focus on it, we could

6 show where a crime had been committed, we didn't seem to be able

7 to get our evidence into grand jury. And I can't really

8 pinpoint a place where it started, except that there were -- I

9 remember a meeting of Mike Fitzhugh and a woman from the U.S.

10 Attorney's Office in Miami concerning money laundering. She was

11 to be out here to instruct Mike Fitzhugh how to handle the money

12 laundering case. And Bill Duncan had asked me to be up there,

13 and my supervisor, Lieutenant Finus Duvall, came up, and it

14 seems like there was somebody else, but I can't remember. And

15 we sat in a little office down the hall from Mike Fitzhugh's

16 office all day thinking that we were going to be needed in his

17 office. And finally -- and Bill Duncan would come in every once

18 in a while frustrated saying that -- telling us that he didn't

19 know what was going on, didn't know what was wrong, but Mike

20 Fitzhugh didn't want us in there. And at one point late in the

21 day somehow, however it happened, I don't know whether it was

22 Bill Duncan or Mike Fitzhugh or whatever happened, but we were

23 allowed to come in and give the status for our investigation at

24 that time, present it to this lady. And she seemed obviously

25 interested. She was -- she thought that that was -- that needed

1 to be pursued. She said, "This case needs to be pursued." And

2 that -- and I don't remember if she made the statement at that

3 time or later, we were told that -- out of her office, that they

4 had two other Assistant U.S. Attorneys that would like to come

5 out and help him prosecute the case. We did have a case

6 developing at that time for cocaine smuggling. There was some

7 concern over the way we were treated prior to the presentation

8 we gave her. Never heard from her again.

9 I don't think it was too long after that, that I was

10 attending a grand jury session in Fayetteville where I knew that

11 the Rich Mountain Aviation case would be coming up. I had not

12 received a subpoena, but I had permission to go up and spend the

13 night in Fort smith on behalf of the Arkansas State Police,

14 Colonel Goodwin was very supportive in the investigation, and if

15 it hadn't been for him I'd probably quit a long time before

16 things did finally come to an end.

17Q. And what do you mean by that, just because of your

18 frustrations?

19 A. Just from the frustrations, I -- it wasn't going anywhere.

20 I wasn't getting support. I wasn't getting subpoenas.

21 Q. Yeah, that was my question. What do you mean you weren't

22 getting support; you weren't allowed to issue subpoenas or what?

23 A. Right. Asa Hutchinson had originally asked for subpoenas,

24 and I didn't know who to subpoena at the time, or I would have

25 given him a list. When I finally did get -- find out who needed

1 subpoenas. I requested the subpoenas by either calling Mike

2 Fitzhugh directly or sending word through Bill Duncan, and was

3 denied the subpoenas. At that time the denial was based on, I

4 believe it was the Graham Rudman Act was in the air at that

5 time, and he said he just didn't have the money to subpoena

6 people for this case.

7 Q. Did you ever get those subpoenas issued?

8 A. Towards the end, you know, there eventually was something

9 take place in grand jury. Subpoenas were issued. When I --

10 when some of the key people were in grand jury, I never got a

11 subpoena. I wasn't asked to show up. And I felt like I was

12 probably the most knowledgeable person or able to give the most

13 help as to what those individuals should be saying, what they

14 said in interviews, what their history is concerning Barry Seal.

15 I didn't feel like anybody else that was there at the time would

16 have known the questions to ask them. When I finally did get a

17 chance to testify in front of a grand jury myself, it was

18 because one lady on the grand jury was from Mena, worked at Mena

19 Airport, and she saw me hanging out in the hall outside the

20 grand jury room in Fayetteville, Arkansas, and told the others

21 that if they wanted to know something about the Mena Airport

22 they ought to ask that guy out there in the hall. At which time

23 Mike Fitzhugh, somewhat angrily, told me that the grand jury

24 wanted to talk to me. At that time, I didn't know, I thought it

25 was Mike Fitzhugh that was wanting me to come in, and later

1 found out that it wasn't. I was still optimistic that we had an

2 investigation going on. And I told him that I could at the

3 time, the best I could. And after that grand jury hearing that

4 I testified in, Mike Fitzhugh asked me into the judge's chambers

5 next to the grand jury room in Fayetteville, and asked me if I

6 could accept a -- two misdemeanor counts on the -- concerning

7 the allegations being made against Rich Mountain Aviation. He

8 didn't mention any names. He just said would I accept two

9 misdemeanor counts on individuals and maybe something on the

10 corporate. But I told him that I couldn't, but I didn't care

11 what he did, and I wouldn't hold him accountable or criticize or

12 talk behind his back or anything concerning what he did, because

13 he was the U.S. Attorney and I was just an investigator, and

14 that's the way I felt about it. I said, "personally, I can't

15 accept two misdemeanor counts because the way I interpret the

16 case it demands more than that." And then he said, "Well, will

17 you accept one misdemeanor count and one felony?" And I asked

18 if were talking about conspiracy to smuggle drugs, and he

19 said yes. And I said, "No, I can't do that." Just knowing the

20 characters that we're talking about, Joe Evans and Freddie

21 Hampton, I was up front with him, I said, "Give Joe Evans the

22 felony count because he's always been an outlaw anyway and he

23 doesn't care one way or the other, and give the Freddie the

24 misdemeanor." But I said, "The case just merits more than that.

25 There's more than that to it." And I reiterated that I can't

1 accept it, but if you want to do it, go ahead. You don't need

2 my blessing. And he -- we spent a long time in that room, and a

3 good part of it was spent with him walking back and forth

4 looking out the window not saying anything. It was a -- it was

5 a very strained period of time that wee were in that office

6 together. And that was all there was to that.

7 Q. So actually no one was ever indicted, were they?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And how would you describe the cooperation of other federal

10 agencies?

11 A. Mixed. The Drug Enforcement Administration in Florida,

12 absolutely zero. They're just as useless to us as tits on a

13 boar hog. We had no use for them at all. I mean, they had

14 just from what they gave us, there were almost to the point of

15 rudeness. We did not get anything out of them. I went to an

16 agent conference in Savannah, Georgia during that time period,

17 which this group, Group 6 or Group 7, whatever it is, did not

18 show up. But there were other Customs agents there and other

19 DEA groups represented, and they were all pretty open that they

20 were surprised that this group from Miami DEA didn't show up.

21 They stated that they were unable to get any use out of them as

22 far as sharing information or working cases. It was just a

23 problem for everybody. And we all rationalized that they had a

24 major problem there, and probably don't have time to mess with

25 us. The amount of drugs that we would get excited about, they

1 wouldn't even go into court with. Rationalized to keep things

2 going smooth.

3 The two DEA officers in Baton Rouge were very helpful, Mike

4 Long and another one, I can't remember his name, They had been

5 investigating Barry Seal for some time, and they were extremely

6 helpful and gave us information for a while that we would never

7 have got from any other source. And they gave us a witness who

8 was in -- at that time was in a safehouse or was being kept in

9 an isolated area because he was about to or had testified

10 against Barry Seal, and they gave us this witness. Which just

11 amazed us. And they gave us a couple of others, a guy named

12 LeBlanc and some others that we had no idea how to get ahold of.

13 The DEA in Arkansas, they were pleasant, easy to get along, but

14 they had no interest in the Barry Seal case at all.

15 As we observed Barry Seal fly into Mena one cold December

16 night, a young pilot by the name of Earl, Billy Earl, I

17 believe. WE had the airport under surveillance. We had

18 received word that either a smuggling operation was going to be

19 consummated there, or was -- something was about to happen

20 concerning Barry Seal. And this was from the operation Coin

21 Roll investigation out of the task force in New Orleans. We set

22 up, we had the FBI, DEA, State Police, and probably about any

23 other investigative agency you can think of, we were all out

24 there in force. I think Arkansas Game and Fish was represented.

25 And the plane did come in. And we observed what later was

1 described as changing of a bladder tank. It was snowing that

2 night. and the DEA wasn't on the airport. They never pulled a

3 surveillance mission. One of the FBI agents commented to me

4 that his partner had stated to him later on, he said, "This is

5 the last time I go on surveillance for an air smuggling mission

6 that the DEA stays in the motel while the rest of us are out in

7 the snow," and he said, "that's got to be a clue." so we didn't

8 get a lot of support from the Arkansas Drug Enforcement

9 Administration.

10 And from other areas it was mixed. We dealt with a lot of

11 agents and agencies who were burned out on investigating Barry

12 Seal, because it had ended in -- all of their efforts had just

13 ended in futility and frustration, sometimes lawsuits. And when

14 they felt like they had cases, things just fell out from under

15 them, and they just wouldn't investigate him and didn't want to

16 hear about it, and certainly didn't want to hear about him from

17 us.

18 One Customs agent told me that, after I was trying to get

19 some help from him, he said "look, we've been told not to touch

20anything that has Barry Seal's name on it, just to let it go."

21 And he said, "That's fine. We've got plenty of other work to

22 do." I could go on and on.

23 Q. So basically would it be a fair summary to say that in your

24 professional opinion Barry Seal moved his entire drug smuggling

25 operation to Mena, Arkansas in the early 1980's and operated

1 there for how long, until his death?

2 A. Oh, yeah.

3 Q. Until 1986?

4 A. Yeah, past 1984 there was obvious government involvement

5 with him.

6 Q. And although you never physically seized any cocaine, in

7 your professional opinion there were shipments of cocaine that

8 came into Mena Airport and/or Mr. Seal had brought those

9 shipments -- or had brought cocaine in from Columbia and let

10 them out in isolated areas to be picked up with his helicopters

11 which were based at Mena at various times?

12 A. We've got reason to believe that that's exactly what

13 happened.

14 Q. And based on reports to you, there was at least some

15 evidence of paramilitary operations or trainings in the Mena

16 vicinity, at least during some of the time?

17 A. Yes, there definitely was.

18 Q. This, in my opinion, Mr. Welch, is essentially the same

19 testimony that Bill Duncan has given, and it is essentially the

20 testimony that Richard Brenneke has given, except that he's gone

21 further in some areas. And I don't think you'll be able to

22 testify to this from your own knowledge, but I want to ask you

23 if it might be consistent with what you've seen at the Mena

24 Airport. Mr. Brenneke, if I can paraphrase his testimony, has

25 testified that he, himself, flew shipments of cocaine into the

1 Mena Airport and that, according to his personal knowledge, some

2 of those cocaine shipments were delivered to representatives of

3 organized crime in this country. In your opinion as a

4 professional law enforcement officer, could this have happened

5 at the Mena Airport?

6 A. Absolutely. I would want to add that since I have ended my

7 investigation of cocaine smuggling and have been listening to

8 the allegations of training, military training having taken

9 place at the Nella Airport, whether that took place or not I

10 don't know. I can say that that does have explanative value to

11 otherwise unexplained events that took place during the time

12 period.

13 Lester Campbell, who was a friend of mine and was a

14 supervisor of the Game and Fish Officers in that area,

15 enforcement officers, was chased off from the Nella Airport area

16 by, I believe he described them as camouflaged subjects who

17 rudely told him to leave. There were reports of the Game and

18 Fish officers who were told the same thing. And during that

19 time period we were getting reports of air traffic at the Nella

20 Airport. And it was during that same time that I was testifying

21 at a murder trial in Waldron, Arkansas, which is the county seat

22 for Scott County where Nella Airport is located. An FBI agent

23 from Fort smith -- the Fort Smith Office asked me to visit with

24 him in the Sheriff's Office at the Waldron, Scott County

25 Courthouse, and asked me to tell him everything I knew about the

1 Nella Airport. I proceeded to do that. One of our

2 investigators, Don Taylor, who is now Chief of Police at Fort

3 Smith, was in there and I thought that they were investigating

4 the allegations that I had been hearing concerning Game and Fish

5 officers being rudely evicted from the area and the air traffic

6 in the area. And the Sheriff at that time had also got these

7 same reports. Several months later, I asked Don Taylor -- or

8 weeks, I asked Don Taylor how that investigation was going, and

9 he told me that he wasn't involved in any investigation. He was

10 just there on something else, and just happened to be in the

11 room with this FBI agent when I came in. That he had no idea

12 what I was talking about. Nothing ever developed from that.

13 MR. BRYANT: Okay. Let's go off the record.

14 (Off-the-record.)

15 Q. BY MR. BRYANT) So following up on your answer that drugs

16 could have been delivered to representatives of organized crime

17 at the Mena Airport. Is there any other reasonable explanation

18 as to what would have happened to drugs that were brought into

19 Mena?

20 A. We were never able to come up with any explanation

21 whatsoever as to what happened to the drugs. We just knew that

22 definitely a lot of cocaine was coming into the country. And

23 where it went, we had no idea.

24 Q. And it's almost inconceivable to think that that amount of

25 cocaine was used locally or in the general area of Mena,

1 Arkansas?

2 A. Oh, definitely. We're talking one to two trips a week, or

3 two weeks, however it varied, with 250 to 350 pounds of cocaine

4 each trip. I've got no idea how that much cocaine would be

5 disseminated.

6 Q. And, in fact, Mr. Welch, you interviewed Barry Seal

7 himself, did you not?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And did he not admit that he brought in billions of dollars

10 of cocaine and drugs into this country over about an eight to

11 ten year period of time?

12 A. Yes, he did.

13 Q. And -

14 A. And stated that during the year 1983, the center of his

15 operation was the Mena Airport.

16 Q. So it's even likely that organized crime or some type of

17 entity would have been the recipient of such large amounts of

18 cocaine, would it not?

19 A. I've never even known of a dealer who could handle that

20 quantity.

21 Q. Then, in your opinion as a professional law enforcement

22 officer, you would not think it unreasonable for Barry Seal to

23 bring drugs into Mena and sell those drugs to organized crime?

24 A. No. Whether it's true or not, it has a lot of explanative

25 value to me. And I don't know who else would take the drugs.

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. It would take tremendous organization to disseminate that

3 amount.

4 Q. Now, let's go back to the case that you were working up

5 that never resulted in any indictments whatsoever. Did the U.S.

6 Attorney, Mr. Fitzhugh, ever tell you that a federal judge

7 wouldn't allow these cases to be presented?

8 A. The meeting that I had with him at the first grand jury

9 session that I had testified before in Fayetteville, during that

10 meeting, when we were discussing possible misdemeanor charges,

11 he told me that we might get an indictment, and we probably

12 could get an indictment, but a federal judge would never let it

13 get to court, and we would be wasting our time.

14 Q. Who is Matt Fleming?

15 A. Matt Fleming was an Assistant U.S. Attorney.

16 Q. In the Fort smith Office?

17 A. In the Fort Smith Office.

18 Q. Did he ever tell you that you had enough evidence for a

19 conspiracy case against the individuals at Mena?

20 A. During one of our meetings that I and others were present

21 at, Matt Fleming and Mike Fitzhugh discussed in our presence the

22 charges that they might want to pursue to the grand jury. Mike

23 Fitzhugh said that he thought we had a good conspiracy case,

24 that he was going to try to get an indictment on during the next

25 session. But he reviewed and discussed with us the merits of

1 aiding and abetting a case as opposed to conspiracy, and thought

2 that -- and asked us if we would approve that. He said it's --

3 the penalty is just the same, very similar, and that it would be

4 easier to handle in court. And in that session, I believe one

5 other, Matt Fleming told him that he thought the conspiracy case

6 would be -- you could go with. And that, I believe, Larry

7 Carver with the DEA was at -- in one of those sessions with us,

8 also.

9 Q. Did the deputy foreman of the grand jury ever express

10 concerns to you about a coverup or not being able to get the

11 evidence they needed?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And who was that?

14 A. That was P.J. Pitts, Patty Pitts.

15 Q. And basically what did she tell you?

16 A. She was -- had expressed concern that they weren't being

17 allowed to investigate the Mena Airport. That Mike Fitzhugh

18 wasn't giving them the evidence that they needed to have, and

19 wasn't giving them the witnesses they needed to have. She felt

20 like that they were being hindered. That they wanted to indict,

21 but were being kept back from it. And that what she finally

22 realized was that he was asking for -- the indictments that he

23 was asking them to give, he had not given the evidence on. She

24 stated that they wanted to indict for conspiracy. But he --

25 when it come up for vote, what he presented to them was a case

1 for cocaine actually being there at the Mena Airport, which we

2 never proved. And he never gave them the opportunity to indict

3 for conspiracy. I believe that's the gist of what -- and money

4 laundering. Money laundering was a big thing. They never got

5 the evidence on money laundering.

6 Q. Did the FBI come to Mena and warn you not to screw up the

7 CIA operation?

8 A. I'm not sure what the purpose was for their appearance.

9 Floyd Hayes and Tom Ross were the FBI agents assigned to the Hot

10 Springs Office. This was a period in 1987, which I wasn't

11 investigating. I had it behind me, and didn't want to mess with

12 it anymore, and I had other cases to go on to, and heard all of

13 Barry Seal I wanted to hear. And there was some new activity at

14 the airport with the appearance of what appeared to be an

15 Australian business by the name of Southern Cross, and C-130's

16 had appeared at the Mena Airport. And this was right on the

17 heels of Barry Seal's assassination and the 123 being there. So

18 there was almost an unconscious association. And I still didn't

19 want to mess with it. I didn't see a crime. If you're not

20 going to show me a crime, don't expect me to investigate, was my attitude

21 at the time. And the two agents showed up one Friday

22 afternoon and asked me to -- or to have coffee with me. And we

23 met at a local coffee shop, and they explained that a friend of

24 theirs at the Hot Springs Airport, who is -- was in the CIA, and

25 they had checked on it and confirmed that he was with the CIA,

1 and that he was a source of theirs, had come to them stating

2 that he received a telephone call from a current CIA member in

3 Miami who was involved with the Southern Air Transport

4 operation. And the Miami agent told the Hot Springs Airport

5 contact that they had something going on at the Mena Airport

6 involving Southern Air Transport, and what had been going on at

7 Southern Air Transport. And they didn't want us to screw it up

8 like we had the last one.

9 At that time Oliver North was being intensely investigated.

10 And I was under the impression that he was being investigated

11 for illegal activity that did take place, whether he was

12 involved or not. And I felt like the FBI was telling me that

13 there may be illegal activity going on here. When I asked them

14 why they were telling me, they said they just wanted me to know.

15 And I asked specifically, "Do we need to investigate

17 it?" They said they didn't know. I felt like I was being --

18 kind of requested to keep an eye on it, which I did, and kept

19 notes, and pretty much unwillingly followed it for a while. And

20 then, later on, when they were asked about that conversation,

21 they both denied it.

22 Q. As a law enforcement officer, how did you feel after

23 investigating the situation at Mena for a number of years and

24 nothing ever happened?

25 A. I've got a lot of different feelings. Bitterness is

1 certainly one of them, because if there was something there that

2 they didn't want investigated, all they ever had to do was tell

3 me to take a hike, and I would never have asked any questions.

4 We have operations all the time -- our own agents in the State

5 Police come into Mena and do undercover operations and don't

6 tell me. I don't need to know, and I don't want to know. I

7 don't get put on an investigation investigating my own people

8 and wasting my time. I could have quit anytime.

9 A local law enforcement officer came to me at one point

10 a couple of years ago and asked if they could put some kind of

11 group together of law enforcement agencies to try to contact

12 somebody, to lobby, or whatever, because they just didn't feel

13 like busting somebody for an ounce of marijuana, when they felt

14 like there were -they knew that so much cocaine transportation

15 had gone unpunished with -- when there was evidence to pursue

16 it. I don't know how to explain it. It's not a good feeling to

17 be used that way.

18 Q. In other words, you feel that you were used in this entire

19 operation, and that the responsible officials never intended to

20 pursue any criminal charges against responsible people?

21 A. That's absolutely the way I feel. At one time we were

22 trying to get Colonel Goodwin's name on the 6-E list so I could

23 brief him as to what I was doing with what I thought was a grand

24 jury investigation. In a conference room at State Police

25 Headquarters in Little Rock, I called Mike Fitzhugh and -- to

1 ask him if I could tell the Colonel the status of the

2 investigation, and he said no. And I asked him if there was a

3 grand jury investigation, and he paused for a minute and said

4 no, said there wasn't a grand jury investigation. And this was

5 after I thought I had been involved in one for probably a year

6 and a half at that time and had been keeping secrets. You know,

7 at least he could tell me that I'm not involved in a grand jury

8 investigation.

9 MR. BRYANT: Let's go off the record.

10 (Off-the record.)

11 MR. BRYANT: That's all. Thank you.

12 (WHEREUPON, at 3:45 p.m., the taking of the

13 above entitled deposition was concluded.)

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