On January 2, 1997, Billy Bottoms initiated a telephone call with the "train deaths'" webmaster. That conversation was recorded and is transcribed below. Much of the first few seconds are unintelligible, but are nothing more than hellos and introductions. If Bottoms wishes to share an audible copy of these exchanges, they will be added to the transcript. Every effort has been made to transcribe the conversation verbatim and accurately. If there are any mistakes in the transcript, corrections will gladly be made. This site's most important product is truth and accuracy, and we are more than happy to correct any information that is shown to us to be wrong.
BB: . . . the whole Mena affair is a hoax.
MK: It is?
BB: And a smoke screen.
MK: Uh, huh.
BB: And, uh, Russell Welch and Bill Duncan both know this now. And Terry Reed is a liar. And
L.D. Brown is a liar. And, uh, Sally Denton and Roger Morris now know this. They wrote the story of the crimes of
MK: Uh, huh. Have you talked to them?
BB: Uh, I've been having e-mail correspondence with them. And they now know that . . . .
MK: I don't think the argument has ever been that there were a lot of drugs running in and out of
Mena, was there?
BB: Well, uh, I can show you over 2,500 documents that I've got on Mena, Arkansas, and none of it is accurate. None of it.
MK: Yeah, uh, I don't think, uh, Jean and Linda has ever said there were a lot of drugs coming in and out of
BB: Well, the facts that I saw that related to them, they basically, uh, concerned with, uh, Linda's lose of those two boys, and uh. . . . it, uh. . . . they got side-tracked with a smoke screen, and, uh, I tell you what, uh, I'm not sure what is behind their problem there, but my suspicion is that it's a local problem, and, uh it had nothing at all to do with Barry Seal or
BB: And, uh, to be on that track, the only the thing that does is allow, if anything. . . you know, if, if it wasn't an accident. . . uh, I have no idea.
MK: Wasn't an accident!?
BB: Well, I don't know.
MK: Have you ever read the autopsy report?
MK: You really ought to, to, study up on this before you, uh, talk about the, the murders.
BB: Well, I don't know anything about it. All I do know is that, uh, uh, Mena, Arkansas and Barry Seal had nothing to do with it. I know that for a fact.
MK: Hey, you didn't even know that they were positively murdered.
BB: Well, I've heard that. I don't, I, I haven't investigated that. I had no. . . .
MK: (Unintelligible). I'll let, uh, Mrs. Duffey talk to you.
BB: Uh, huh, I mean, they could very well be, and I wouldn't doubt that they were. It sounds
kind of suspicious to me.
MK: Yeah, yeah.
BB: And I read reports that. . . .
MK: You ought to get on the web site and read autopsy report. . . . page 24.
BB: All right. But, uh, the only thing I can offer to help right there is that, uh, if, if, if you guys are investigating, trying to find the source of the murders, it's not anywhere around
Mena, Arkansas or any relation to Barry Seal or the CIA or anything like that.
MK: Uh, huh, and how do you know that?
BB: Well, I was Barry Seal's pilot, and, uh, all of his flights that everybody thought he took, I took, and we didn't bring any drugs at all to Arkansas.
MK: Was there no other pilots?
MK: Uh, huh.
BB: Well, there was Emile Camp, but he was my co-pilot.
MK: Now, uh, see, see, that's where you don't understand. They're not saying any of the drug drops came from
Mena. They never have. . . . never have. In fact, most of the drops came, came out of Texas.
BB: It could very well be, but I do know that, uh, through British 20-20 and through a lot of documents that I've seen. . . . and not a whole lot on the, the Ives issue. . . uh, that's just something that kind of during my investigation to get behind, to, to find out. . . . I just completed a three-month-long investigation myself into the Mena hoax and as it relates to Barry Seal and smuggling, dope, guns, and the CIA, and Bill Clinton, and all of that hog wash. . . .
MK: Uh, now you say that the CIA had nothing to do with Barry Seal?
BB: Uh, yes, that's exactly true.
MK: His testimony of. . . . uh, I've, I've got copies of his testimony before the, the court in, uh, Louisiana. . . .
BB: Uh, huh.
MK: And he says he. . . . when he bought the Fat Lady for this other guy, he bought it from Air America.
BB: Well, he bought it from Harry Doan. I went and picked it up.
MK: The prosecutor, uh, the prosecutor said, "Air America? The same Air America we're talking about was CIA's airline as it is called?"
BB: Well, that's just not true, because I went and picked the airplane up.
MK: Then they're lying?
BB: Well, I, I don't know how accurate the source of your document is, but I do know that I went and picked the airplane up. We traded a Merlin and a, a, helicopter for the airplane. We got it from Harry Doan. I picked the plane up from Daytona(?) Beach. And, uh, when we were done with it, we sold it back to Harry Doan for $250,000 and I delivered it to him at Daytona(?) Beach, and drove it in his hanger. Or, uh, wouldn't fit in his hanger, but, uh, uh, he's got a hanger there at Daytona(?) Beach with all kinds of antique airplanes in it, and I landed it, left it on the apron, and came home.
MK: Um, hum.
BB: Barry followed me other there in another airplane, and we came back in a smaller air plane.
MK: And, uh. . . .
BB: The only thing, the only connections Barry Seal ever had with the CIA was when they put, uh, cameras in the air plane. . . . they found about the, the DEA sting in Nicaragua, and, uh. . . .
MK: Yeah, I've heard all that.
BB: Yeah, and they put the camera in the air plane. But it didn't have nothing to do with Mena, that was done at Homestead Air Force Base, and what the CIA did, actually, was screw that operation up.
MK: Um, hum.
BB: They leaked information and blew the cover on it and shut it down. We (unintelligible) an operative with them. They used and abused us and screwed up everything Barry Seal tried to do.
MK: Um, hum, I don't doubt that, but why would Barry lie?
BB: Well, I wouldn't think that, that he did lie. In fact, I know that he didn't lie.
MK: Well, that, that was his. . . .
BB: I would think that your document's wrong.
MK: You got to be kidding!
BB: Or out of context, or whatever. I don't know.
MK: You got to be kidding, he uh, he, he said he bought it from Air America.
BB: Well, maybe he thought Harry Doan is Air America, and maybe Air, Harry Doan is Air America. All I can say is, I don't know.
MK: I don't remember the guys name, but he did say he bought it for someone else with someone else's money, but he specifically said he bought it from Air America and the title never changed. It stayed in Air America's name is what his testimony was, and that is the CIA.
BB: Well, that's not correct testimony, because, uh, I, I know the facts that, that are involved. Whether, whether he actually said that, I don't know.
MK: Um, huh.
BB: If he did, he may have had a purpose for saying that, but I doubt very seriously, that, that's in context. If you have it in writing, it's out of context. Uh, it could not be. I'm not saying that, that, uh, he did say that. I do know that, uh, several times Barry used. . . . uh, he lied to people, trying to get them to believe that he was a CIA operative several times. And, uh, the reason for that is obvious.
MK: Well, in his testimony, he tried to distance himself from the CIA and the prosecutor tried to nail him down that that is the CIA. . . . is known as the CIA's airline. He, he kept saying, "I, I don't know nothing about that."
BB: And he doesn't. And he didn't. And we didn't. And, uh. . . .
MK: Well, I'm really not qualified to discuss this with you. I'm sure Mrs. Duffey could discuss it with it thoroughly.
BB: She may want to. She may not. I don't know, uh, I sent her an e-mail letting her know that the, uh Mena myth has been well, uh, debunked, now. Uh, there's no question and there's been (unintelligible) to show that none that's true. And Russell Welsh and Bill Duncan. . . .
MK: Uh, huh. Well, if you're going to say that there wasn't a lot of drugs going into Mena, yeah, I don't think there's any argument there. There, there probably wasn't. Now, there may have been bags, uh, a duffel bag here and there coming in. Yeah, right. But, that's. . . . uh, I don't believe anyone is, is saying that. . . . no that, that I'm associated with, anyway.
BB: See, arms wasn't there either. There was no guns taken out of there. Well, you know, uh, nothing happened (unintelligible), and, uh. . . .
MK: So, the CIA lied when they said they were involved in it last, uh, two, uh, last month?
BB: Well, they didn't. . . . no, what they said. . . . and I found out about that story. What they said was, the only thing they were involved with at Mena, Arkansas was a training operation. . . .
MK: And you expect the CIA to tell us everything they were involved in? Come on, come on, Mr. Bottoms. You know they're not, they're not going to give one tenth of the information that they, they know that they were actually doing there. . . . not one tenth. This is the CIA
BB: Well, I don't know what kind of covert operation they could perform at Mena, Arkansas with one single run-way, lined with commercial businesses.
MK: (Unintelligible) they stored planes there. They stored them there for, uh, uh, significant period of time, and had lots of maintenance done there.
BB: Yeah, that's what that place was. Any civilian. . . . there was a lot of people that used it for that. There's nothing covert about that, though.
MK: Um huh.
BB: Anybody that owns an airplane and wanted work. . . . we did it, the CIA did it, the DEA did it, a lot of people did it. . . . drug smugglers did it.
BB: And all that anybody that flies an airplane in there. . . . and you can do it in a day. Take an airplane, and they don't know who you are or what you are. You go in there, walk in with an airplane and say, "I want this done to my airplane." They do it, get their money.
MK: I see.
BB: That doesn't make it a covert operation.
BB: You know. . . . and the covert operations or training exercises wasn't even a covert operation. What they admitted to was the training exercises (unintelligible) public relations.
MK: Well, well, that's what they admitted to. I mean you're talking about, you're talking about the CIA here. I mean, they're not going to tell you, tell you what they were up to. They're going to give you as little as they possibly can.
BB: Yeah, I know, but what we know, I mean, you can guess all you want to, and, and, and if all that' s true, there's still no evidence that anything happened in there. There's not much covertness to go on in Mena that anybody with any logical sense about it, because of the nature of the deal.
MK: Uh, huh.
BB: But, what they did do, was they supported. . . .
MK: What, what was it that, uh, L. D. Brown lied about?
BB: Everything he said.
MK: So, he, uh. . . .
BB: He never flew with Barry Seal. He never even met Barry Seal.
MK: He, he, wasn't a, an applicant for the CIA?
MK: Now see. (chuckle) You, you. . . .
BB: Well, wait. . . .
MK: You screwed up when. . . .
BB: No, I know. . .
MK: Cause the CIA admitted in their preliminary report that he was. . . .
BB: Wait a minute. . . .
BB: He was not an operative for the CIA.
MK: He was a appli. . . .
BB: What he did was, he put an application in, and they shot it down.
MK: You'll have to retract.
BB: He wasn't hired.
MK: And the CIA says he wasn't.
BB: And, and you're going tell me that a person that's an applicant, that all he's done is send an application in, and he's not been hired yet. . . . in fact, he was turned down.
MK: Yeah, that's correct.
BB: That during that period of time that's he waiting for them to hire him, they're going to put him, they're going to put him on a top secret, covert mission? Give me a break.
MK: Uh, huh. I, I doubt it was a, a covert.
BB: Well, if he's. . . . what he's saying to do, if he went down on a guns mission to Central America, that's as covert as you can get.
MK: Um, huh.
BB: I mean, the man's lying. There's no question that the man is lying. No support to his word. None. There's nobody that can support him.
MK: Because there's no documentation.
BB: Well, it didn't happen. There's no proof of it, that, that I know, it didn't happen. And I know Barry Seal, and Barry Seal. . . .
MK: Well, see, that's the problem, uh, and it's well known that the CIA makes, makes a point, and all the, the big government agencies that deal with, uh, black bag operations, that they make sure that there's no paper trail.
BB: Well, all I can tell you is that Barry Seal just didn't do any of them. (Unintelligible) did it with somebody else, I don't know.
BB: But I know he didn't do it with them.
MK: Well, I don't think. . . I don't think anybody's ever thought that, not that I'm associated with, has ever said Barry Seal brought a lot of drugs into Mena.
BB: Well, he didn't bring any.
MK: And, and, I, I don't doubt that. There never has been an argument, but it was a base. . . . it was, it was a base. He, he, he moved his operation from Louisiana, because the heat was on. Is that not correct?
BB: Well, no. We operated. . . . we never did move the operation. We operated out of Louisiana. We just stored the airplanes up there.
BB: You know, it's not very smart to store your equipment, especially when it's set up the way we had it set up, in front of the very people that's where you're operating.
BB: And what we were doing, we. . . . in fact, we didn't just use Mena, Arkansas, we used a couple of other places out of different states to store equipment. And when we got ready for a trip, we'd go collect our equipment, bring it to Louisiana and leave, come back, and I'd make a drop into Louisiana. I did the flights. I did all of them.
MK: Um, huh. O.K.
BB: Uh, we'd come back into Louisiana, do an air drop, and he would be there to me with a helicopter, and they'd pick it, and put it in the trunk of the car, and send the car to Los Angeles or Miami. And that's all we did.
BB: We didn't do anything else, other than that.
MK: I don't think you'll get an argument when you're talking about lots of drugs going into Mena, but there's some other stuff that just, that just doesn't add up and you say there was nothing there.
BB: Well, people are going to believe what they're going to believe, but all I'm doing, is I'm telling everybody. . . . see it's been ten years before, uh, that I've been started. I went on to work as an undercover officer for the government.
MK: Well, see that's, that's what I was fixing to say. You have something at stake to, uh, try and debunk Mena.
BB: No, I don't have anything at stake.
MK: You, you're not still a, a paid. . . . you're not still paid by the government?
BB: No, uh, uh, I, finished with them in 1990.
BB: And they never investigated me. I was never under indictment. I went to them voluntarily. They didn't know anything about me when I went to them.
BB: I worked for my own reasons, well beyond what ever. . . anybody would have expected from me, because of my own reasons. And, uh, the only reason that I came out to debunk the Mena conspiracy or the Mena myth is, uh, right before the elections, Senator Leach sent an investigator to my home to, uh, interrogate me, and try to get me to jump on the get-Clinton band wagon.
MK: Uh, huh.
BB: And, uh, Clinton had absolutely nothing to do with me, or Barry Seal, or our operation.
MK: Mm, hum.
BB: And, and, uh, I took that as a threat that here they were doing this investigation, and all these people were out there were lying against on this huge hoax about Mena, and I'm going to be sitting across the table from some oversight committee that's real.
MK: They've already, uh, they sent out two investigators out to see Ms. Duffey, and she never has been. . . . that never has been their agenda to get Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton's not even in their agenda.
BB: Well, I (unintelligible), one of the, uh, top attorney's in Louisiana, sitting in the room with me. We did it at (unintelligible)'s office, and the very. . . . I asked him before we even started, "what is the total scope of what you want to know?" And I'd already briefed, uh. . . .I, I had some inside information already on what they wanted, but Steve (unintelligible) sat there and said, "well, we know what happened in the government documents, and, and (unintelligible). What we want to know is what went on under the table. You know, money laundering, CIA,
dope, guns and drugs, uh, and any involvement with Bill Clinton."
MK: Uh, hum.
BB: If not an invitation to jump on the band wagon, I don't know what is.
MK: Well, we, we wouldn't (unintelligible). Linda Ives and Jean Duffey had, they had nothing to do with, uh, the uh. . . Bill Clinton is not on their agenda. They're not Clinton bashers, and they never have been.
BB: Did you see, uh, Senator Leach on CSPAN the other day, about two weeks ago?
MK: Uh, no. I read the transcript.
BB: What he basically said was, since the first caller popped the Mena question, and he blinked. And his answer was, "Uh, well, uh, we've concluded our investigation into Mena, Arkansas, and what we found out is not as much really happened at Mena as we thought, and, uh, we might put a report out in a month or two." And that's all he said.
MK: Mm, hmm. Right.
BB: And, uh, Sally Denton just posted on the internet through a, another poster, that, uh, their crimes of Mena story is basically a, a hoax.
BB: She didn't say it quite in those words.
MK: No. I'd have to see it, see that to believe it. I'd have to see that to believe it.
BB: Well, it's posted on the internet in the Clinton Forum. I also, uh, current event.clinton. whitewater.
MK: O.K. I'll get up there and get it.
BB: (Unintelligible). She didn't put it in quite those words, but once you read it, you'll see that, uh, she admitted that she had no evidence, absolutely no. . . in all those 2,500 documents that she got, she got, she had, had no evidence at all about any of this.
MK: Well, most. . . it's all just circumstantial. Well, there is no, uh, uh documentation. That's what, uh. . .
BB: I, I, I've been working on the internet for three months getting out the facts as I know them, and what's happened in the last three days is the hoax about Mena has finally crumbled.
MK: Um, hmm. What's happened in the last three days.
BB: Well, basically, that Sally Denton is coming out with, uh. . . she first tried to discredit me. Uh, I sent them an (unintelligible) e-mail and invited them into a, a friendly debate on, on the internet .
MK: Um, Hmm.
BB: And she sent me an e-mail back, and she said, "(Unintelligible) you, Billy Bob. Uh, we know your relationship with Barry's family and his organization, and, uh, we're busy right now, but we'd like to come into the newsgroup and weigh in at a later time, and, and, have, have a debate." Well, what she did a couple of weeks ago, when she came in on the internet and dropped a, a real brief little comment that, uh, she doesn't have any idea who I am, and my story is dubious at best and more than likely, it's a fabrication and jumped right off. And that's all she said.
BB: So I immediately posted her e-mail to me on top of that where she sent me an e-mail saying she knew who I was and was aware of my relationship with Barry's family. . . Barry was my brother-in-law.
MK: Mm, hmm.
BB: He married my sister. I know his brothers, uh, Ernest Jacobson and Bob (unintelligible). Bob (unintelligible) and Ernest Jacobson was Barry's DEA handlers(?). Bob (unintelligible) right now, and he's head of the DEA in New Orleans. I'm in contact with him almost, uh, weekly. Uh, Earnest Jacobson, the other DEA handler, he's retired, and he's in, uh, partnership with me right now. And we're writing a, a book about all of this. And I've talked with Russell Welch, uh, Russell's talked to Bill Duncan, and I've got, uh, information from them, correspondence from them, that, uh, Terry Reed is a liar, and that, uh, they, uh, basically have completely agreed that the whole Mena story is a hoax.
MK: O.K. I'm going to have to ask Russell that.
BB: So, uh, basically, the Mena story is over, and the only reason I contacted you folks is, I got asked during the time that I was posting on the internet, trying to get people to understand that this is a smokescreen of a lot of other illegal activity. I'm sure, uh, what that is, I don't know, but, uh, I do know that Mena is a smokescreen. But during the, uh, this period of time that I was posting, I had people asking me questions about, "Well, what about the Ives', uh, murders?"
MK: Mm, hum.
BB: And, uh, my only reply when, when that came up. . . I didn't really know much about it until, uh, that came up, and so I looked in to it, and I found out a little bit about it, but I don't know nothing about it at all. But my reply to that was, basically, uh, I, I don't know of anything about that and the only way that I could help in that matter is to assure anybody that's investigating it, not to look into the Mena smokescreen for any answers to it. Better look around locally there to find your answers.
MK: Well, there's a lot of. . . it, it, it's mostly local.
BB: Well, that's I, that's what it's. . . I'm. . . I, I got a good gut feeling for investigations, and, and, uh, I, I have a talent for getting to the bottom of things.
MK: It's, it's mostly local, but there is, uh, there is a Mena connection, and the, the evidence is substantial, and, and it is. . . .
BB: Well, that could very well be, but it doesn't have anything to do with Barry Seal or me.
MK: Uh, oh, no. It never has. It never has. It was what went on after that. . . .after Barry was murdered.
BB: Are you denying that, that, that, uh, that those, those murders have been. . . . it's been alleged that we had something to do with it?
MK: That the murders, well, that, uh, no, no. . . .
BB: Well, I can show you. That has been documented.
MK: Well, is, is that. . . .
BB: All I'm saying, all I'm saying is. . . . I don't care what people think. You know, I do care, and, and I'm sorry for, uh, Linda Ives's loss.
MK: Uh, hum.
BB: And, uh, the only way I can help her is to assure her that Barry Seal, nor I, nor our operation had anything to do with it, and don't let anybody steer you in that direction while the people that did it get away.
MK: Uh, hum. I don't think that's going to happen. Uh, they, they, they really. . . they've gathered so much, uh, testimony, documentation, and, uh, depositions that it. . . the evidence is, is substantial. When it (unintelligible). It, it, it's, uh, substantial.
BB: It sounds to me like you had some corruption there in the local legal system.
MK: It's full of corruption.
BB: And, uh. . . .
MK: Well, I want to say, there is a Mena connection, and, and the evidence they have on that is substantial. It's not that would, would. . . like the Mena connection that would, uh, that Clinton haters want to hear. But there is a Mena connection.
BB: What is that connection?
MK: Well, I can't talk about that. That's just something I can't talk about. It, it is, it will come out in court, and that's the only time it's going to be talked about.
BB: Yeah, it could very well be, and, and you know, as far as. . . .it could very well have something to with drugs, cause there's a lot of people smuggling drugs.
MK: Uh, hum.
BB: Uh, I just, I don't have any information that I could help you guys with on that, but the only thing, and the only reason I reach out to you folks now, is I don't know where you're at. I do know what I've read, and I do know some of the allegations where that we might have had something to do with it. . . .
MK: You ought to get on the website. They've got a website.
BB: Do you have the (unintelligible) for it?
MK: It's, uh, www. . . .
BB: Uh, huh.
MK: . . . .dot idmedia dot com.
MK: Uh, huh. It's a huge, massive website. I ought to know, I'm the webmaster.
BB: O.K. Uh, yeah, I've, I've got a little time now. Uh, for the last three months, what I've been doing, is I've collected six or seven thousand pages of documents concerning, uh, Mena (unintelligible), Clinton.
MK: Well, if you'll go through that website, and I'll tell you, it does. . . . it's getting up to close to 12 megs on there now. And I don't, I don't even think Bill Clinton's name is mentioned one time on the site. Maybe once or twice, but, uh, he, he just doesn't play a part in this other than the Fahmy Malak. . . . his cover-up and, uh, and his protection of Fahmy Malak.
BB: Well, I'm certainly not a Clintonite, but I'm not a Republican either. I, I have kind of strange politics. My politics is whichever I think will do the most for the people.
MK: Mm, hum.
BB: And I don't have the (unintelligible) to vote for any of them, to tell you the truth. I think they need somebody like Sonny Bono in there.
MK: Giggle. Yeah, well, (unintelligible) and Mrs. Duffey could have (unintelligible).
BB: Well, uh, she may. . . . if she's interested, I'd be glad to talk her about it. If, uh, if she's well settled in, in her, uh, search then, then that'd be a waste of time.
MK: Well, she never stops getting information, it just never stops, and, uh, a lot of it gets thrown out, because. . . .
BB: I know that during my three months on the internet that, uh, her name came up (unintelligible) trying to discredit my story. Why they wanted to do that, I don't know. I'm probably the only person on the internet that had any inside information at all, and I've got too many people that'll stand behind me, unlike L.D. Brown.
MK: Uh, hum.
BB: (Unintelligible). I was an undercover operative, and I can tell you the names of hundreds of hundreds of people that I work with.
MK: Mm, hum.
BB: And, uh, they'll, they'll, you know. . . .I did work on
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